Plagarism of Content

[nanshi_nibble]

As some of you may be aware, there has been a lot of heated chat in the community about plagarism of content. I.e., that people are posting others custom creations to the showcase and calling it their own. I have come across at least one instance of this of my own, just having a quick browse now (btw seen a few of yours as well amysims & merlin_simmius).

This is definitely something that should be brought up in the next chat. How about all us designers/creators and those sympathetic to them who enjoy their creations 'bomb' MAXIS with this question in the next chat?

How does MAXIS plan to address the issues with plagarism on the TS2 sims showcase?

If anybody can think of a better way of phrasing that feel free!

[KatAnubis]

As some of you may be aware, there has been a lot of heated chat in the community about plagarism of content. I.e., that people are posting others custom creations to the showcase and calling it their own. I have come across at least one instance of this of my own, just having a quick browse now (btw seen a few of yours as well amysims & merlin_simmius).

This is definitely something that should be brought up in the next chat. How about all us designers/creators and those sympathetic to them who enjoy their creations 'bomb' MAXIS with this question in the next chat?

How does MAXIS plan to address the issues with plagarism on the TS2 sims showcase?

If anybody can think of a better way of phrasing that feel free!
I wish there was some way to label the creations better. I was having problems with one of the downloads (no preview for a lipstick color) so I made one for it, but when I put it back in, I made sure that the original person's name was in the "label." But it would be nice if it was part of it.

[wize_guy123]

I made a skin for TSR's contest.... The Sims 2 Go Retro... let me check if anyone submitted it yet...

they better not have
!

[wize_guy123]

sims... thats just plain crazy... but I dont want my work stolen

[booba]

Well how was this issue addressed by Maxis b4? I have been playing the sims for a long time and Maxis cannot control what people put on the net or what others download. In sims 1 there was alot of thievery, so to put text files in with the download "Please do not re-color, or distribute without my permission" means what? That they are not going claim it has their own. Any time u upload a creation u take a risk. Then again alot of these sites charge for their creations or shld i say "bandwith, so people feel that if they pay, they own it and do as they please with it. I don't condone thievery and if you use a person work give them credit, but all that ask permission stuff is for the birds. The good thing about the sims 2 it lets everyone be alittle creative, especially those of us who have never skinned, but if u thinking about uploading a creation make sure it is really yours.

[merlin_simmius]

Steve at TSR said he had a phone conversation with Lucy Bradshaw about this same topic and that Maxis will be looking into it, although what they'll do now is anyone's guess.

It doesn't bother me so much that people are uploading some of my creations onto the Showcase, it bothers me though, when I paid WDS to be able to download certain Sims 2 items, to then go and see people uploading them onto the Showcase for people to download for free. If BriAnna at WDS wanted her hair free, it would be. And it bothers me because even though subscriptions for downloads isn't a much loved thing, it is necessary for some sites to be able to stay open. If no one paid, would there be a Sim Freaks, WDS, TSR? Probably not. That bothers me more than anything else.

[ManagerJosh]

Steve at TSR said he had a phone conversation with Lucy Bradshaw about this same topic and that Maxis will be looking into it, although what they'll do now is anyone's guess.

It doesn't bother me so much that people are uploading some of my creations onto the Showcase, it bothers me though, when I paid WDS to be able to download certain Sims 2 items, to then go and see people uploading them onto the Showcase for people to download for free. If BriAnna at WDS wanted her hair free, it would be. And it bothers me because even though subscriptions for downloads isn't a much loved thing, it is necessary for some sites to be able to stay open. If no one paid, would there be a Sim Freaks, WDS, TSR? Probably not. That bothers me more than anything else.
I think this issue needs to be addressed by EA Legal and not Maxis. I personally feel there are some gray areas that needs to be addressed and defined..

[Amy Sims]

I have come across a couple of items of mine which have been renamed with little work done to them and resubmitted under new names.

To tell you the truth, I hardly batted an eye.

I knew that if I actually made something worth while one day, it was bound to happen.
It is almost like a compliment. Not that I would actually thank the person or persons who have done it. :)

The way I see it is that if someone is desperate enough to NEED some sort of acknowledgment that they would copy another persons work then they would in no doubt ignore any complaint made.
In most cases, it wasn't their first time and it probably will not be their last.

I make note of their name and make a promise to not download anything they submit or read anything they write. They lose all credibility with me and with people I talk to.

All I can really say it that I enjoy what I do and I accept the consequences of that enjoyment. I don't have to like it, but I can accept it.

I am sure Maxis is aware of the problem but are unable to enforce any copyright laws. People are not copying their stuff, only ours.

I used to put my name on all of my "regular" sims clothing. Perhaps anyone making Sims2 content should put their name somewhere on the same page as their outfit. Write it in white so it can be seen. It wont show up on the body as long as you don't add it to the white alpha page.

Amy

[nanshi_nibble]

I have to admit, of all the 'copied' items on sims showcase Amy, you seem to have been stung badly. But you are right, don't they say 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.'

I have come across a few of mine, and although I got a bit het up before, I have come to accept it. And yes you are right...how can you value the opinion of someone who quite happily will 'steal' from you?

So when I come across them now, me and my partner just have a laugh - he thinks that they must really like my skins enough to say they are thier own!
:p

[wize_guy123]

That is very true... but then again... they may get something you want... such as if Maxis was holding a contest.... and you already made a certain thing they were looking for... someone might already submit it...

Or maybe they could get a job at lets say... TSR to be an Official Creator... by submitting your work... and you were hoping for a job like that... and if that were to happen... and soon TSR would turn itself into a pay site... for those skins... and started paying the person that copied your work... then you see what I mean...

[Amy Sims]

I didn't know that any of my work made it onto TheSimsShowcase. That must mean it's pretty good. :)

Redistribution is an ever growing problem. I guess I can always hope that the people doing it will grow up one day.

Amy

[wize_guy123]

Very True...

[FaeLuna]

I like the idea of putting your name on the skin graphic so it won't show up on the sim because of the alpha channels, that would be really helpful for people wanting to keep track of where they got something from too!!

And it probably won't stop a lot of people who are stealing and claiming it's theirs, but it MIGHT stop people who don't realize they should give credit, or shouldn't recolor and distribute something when you don't have permission, and wouldn't mean to do something wrong if they realized they were doing it.

[Vchat20]

very good idea Fae. love the idea of putting your name on the texture and hiding it with the alpha channels. when i get around to making my own custom content, ill make sure to remember that.

[wize_guy123]

Yes very good idea

[sketchingblue]

i've had more then 15 people 'steal' my items off my sims website and post them again on the forums...one particular top named 'mocha1shoulder' has been stolen numerous times people probably dont know the owner of it anymore

thats why it hurt so much seeing this this morning -
http://thesims2.ea.com/sim_detail.php?asset_id=19627&lastURL=%2Fshowcase.php%3Faction%3Dsearch%26nrows% 3D5%26order%3Dcreation_date%2Bdesc%26age%3D%26gend er%3D%26language%3D%26country%3D%26feature%3D0%26c ustom%3D0%26key%3D%26screen_name_std%3Dthebrewcrew 2004%26nstart%3D6

my mocha stripe tshirt, in the description 'Shirt by Amy Sims at simstuff.com'
I visit simstuff a lot (although this is my first time on the forum) and go through the items. i know no one here has stolen any of my stuff, and im more then certain that Amy Sims has never taken any credit for anything of mine as your stuff is great :)

but it hurts when someone credits your hard work as their own or someone elses. especially with the showcase cause i cant even email them and let them know they've made a mistake. now everyone that sees it on the showcase will think that it was made by Amy Sims

[Amy Sims]

I just went to the Sims2 web site from the link you gave and when I read the description my jaw dropped to the floor.

It is too bad that they cannot be educated.

I am sure it must be very frustrating to see stuff like that.

*Thank you for the compliment about my stuff* :)

Amy

[Trinasis]

Well that is wrong if they claim the stuff as theres and its not! They may not have even played the game! But I got a website/journal up and I got the pictures for maxis but I would never claim something is mines if I didn't make it! But I did make this site. Hey maybe you guys can come a look at it! Plz and Thank you!


http://Journals.aol.com/lovemeisyouwant/thesims2/
again the web site is:

http://journals.aol.com/lovemeisyouwant/TheSims2/

Be sure you tell your friends come and join me!

[FaeLuna]

I took a look at your sims 2 journal, it looks like a good distraction while waiting for sime 2 to come out!

I feel sad about all the people posting mistaken credits for stuff. :( It seems like that happens when someone ELSE lied, and they are TRYING to give credit, and somehow that just adds to the pain of knowing someone stole it. :(

[wize_guy123]

I just hope none of my stuff is used as someone elses... because it took me a while to make some of those creations... I wouldnt care if someone made the same exact thing as me but if they just copied it... I just wouldnt be happy

[booba]

Everyone one is so quick to say "I hope they don't use my stuff or I hope they give credit to the maker". Well so far I have went on many sites and basically I see almost everyone (even the most exprienced skinners) using the majority of maxis stuff. Yeah you take a top that is long and erase part of it to make a crop top or you take the pj's and re-color it and put pretty pictures on it. basically you are taking maxis stuff and altering it and it is no different when someone use your top and re-color and put different pictures on it. I recently saw on simstuff.com a pink wool sweater, but you know it looks alot like the sweater that came with bodyshop, nicely re-colored and texturized I must admit, but a maxis skin nonetheless. So how can people claim it theirs when it's not really. I don't see many giving credit to maxis, but they are quick to want credit. I haven't uploaded any of my creations yet, but if I do I will make sure to thank joe, who didn't thank kitty, who thank nite guy, who didn't thank Maxis. Get the point.

[Trinasis]

I just hope none of my stuff is used as someone elses... because it took me a while to make some of those creations... I wouldnt care if someone made the same exact thing as me but if they just copied it... I just wouldnt be happy
Oh yeah! I wouldn't do that! But I just would like to have ppl come and express there points of view on my journal!

[Amy Sims]

Booba

You are right. People are taking Maxis supplied material and either recoloring them or changing them in other ways.
I believe it's the "other ways" that is bothering people.
Yes, you can take a female top and add a different neck line by manipulating the white alpha page or you can take 2 different items of clothing and combine them.
Considering that Maxis has supplied us with a limited number of clothing options for the Sims2 BodyShop program, people are having to change what is supplied in order to make NEW clothing designs.
The new design becomes a new article of clothing. It becomes something that Maxis didn't supply and therefore belongs to the creator. However, Maxis would get credit with the body mesh since we have no way in creating our own at this point.

Amy

[booba]

Amy

Then what is the difference if I take one of your creations and change the neckline or add a few buttons? and call it my creation. Shoud I give you credit? even though you did not create the mesh? Some people do make such small changes that one can not tell it from the orignal creator except they made theirs blue. Then there are really good skinners who have signature styles, who create their own meshes and you can tell who is the creator (that goes for objects too), yeah they need to be credited. I just hope these great skinners don't disappear when sims 2 hits the stores, but I don't think their stuff should be re-colored and uploaded. Bottomline folks if you re-color and only re-color, keep it your own game. If you load it up, give credit. I just don't think one should sulk if this re-color is uploaded.:)

[nanshi_nibble]

Bottomline folks if you re-color and only re-color, keep it your own game. If you load it up, give credit. I just don't think one should sulk if this re-color is uploaded.:)

Hi Booba, if I may re-enter the discussion here. I am not sure as to what your point is here.

At first you say, if you re-colour a skin keep it in your own game and then you tell us skinners we shouldn't sulk if it is recoloured then uploaded. I am not sure of your point here...could you please clarify?

[Trinasis]

yeah some ppl are wrong about using other ppls stuff, and claiming it as theirs. That is not right and no one should ever do that. That is why on my site I make sure I tell ppl where I got my pictures from because they are not mines and I didn't make them!

[mAster_Inept]

from where i stand, maxis provided us with those meshes and all those other things as a template...sure a recolor isn't much of a change, but in itself, it's still a difference to the orignal, likewise any reskin. the big difference tho is this: maxis are in it commercially. the thing is, they are paid to make stuff for their game because they are a business. It's cold and impersonal i know but its a fact.

this doesn't mean i support ripping off their work, but the thing is, the rest of us who make new skins are in it to make skins others can enjoy. we make work so others can appreciate what WE have done, and hopefully reap some enjoyment from our creations. those of us who create these things, we create them out of good will, when someone takes our creation, making superficial changes and calling it completely their own, it's wrong. when someone takes your concept, changes it beyond recognition, then by all means, it's their work. when someone says, i got my idea from this guy, and used his meshes/art etc, its a good thing, because people are making something of your creations. by all means, credit maxis if your skin is based off theirs, but honestly, how many of us are JUST recoloring? at any level, there's has been work put in and those who put in that work deserve their credit. :confused:

[merlin_simmius]

At this point in time, I think the "no one credits Maxis" argument is worthless. It's obvious we're using Maxis' meshes, being as there is no means at this time for us to make our own.

[KatAnubis]

At this point in time, I think the "no one credits Maxis" argument is worthless. It's obvious we're using Maxis' meshes, being as there is no means at this time for us to make our own.
Exactly. Not only that, Maxis has provided us with those meshes specifically for us to use in making custom content! The only purpose of BodyShop really is for that (especially once the game comes out.) CAS is for creating the Sims themselves (although they've given us limited aspects of that for BodyShop so that we can get a head start) but really BodyShop is a means for us to be able to do custom content (which they've said can't be done with CAS.)

Maxis knows that it is in the best interest of the game to have us doing custom content. They've specifically said that they want to make Sims2 much more compatible with custom content and BodyShop is the first of the tools they'll be giving us to do that.

However, what we do with it is still based on our own creativity (except recolors which really doesn't take any creativity, just a hue/saturation/value change.)

[mAster_Inept]

not as if everyone's just doing recolors anyway

[Mega_Mayo]

i have all the skins an all that but where in the directory do these genetics and other bits of features go?

[poobaloo]

Hi folks,
Let's remember, this is a game... there is no plagirism.

Anything you post regarding your customizations or creations becomes public domain. You have no claim to any of it once it's posted.

Just like if you wear an outfit out in public, and other ppl see it, and next thing you see 10 ppl wearing your outfit, or copying your design, that is not plagirism.

You don't OWN any of the Sims 2, other than the license to play it. That's what you bought. Try reading those license agreements, instead of just clicking "I agree". You are not being plagirized.

Any content you publish is open to the public to use as content in their own game, tweak, and republish however they choose.

I'll agree it may be "rude" or "socially discouraged", but not plagirism in the slightest. That said, I'm sure everyone appreciates all the work ppl did in creating their outfits & Sims. I sure do, and I know how much time is involved in making them.

[alaskasmith]

I dunno... that's kind of the same as saying a book or a CD, as soon as it's available to the public to buy or read/listen to in a library, is no longer "plagiarize"able. Yet go ahead and try copying it out and claiming it as your own in a university thesis. See how long you last in the academic world. ;)

It's NOT a question of legality, copyrights, etc. It's a question of ethics, of morality. Just as a university would be pretty **** quick to throw someone out for stealing entire pages of a book for their thesis, I think the Sims 2 online community should come down hard on blatant texture map thieves.

Otherwise, we're NOT a community. If we just sit by and say "oh quit whining so what if you had your stuff stolen" artists won't feel we care about them anymore, and leave. Why would I share my creations to people who don't respect my work enough to defend me when it's ripped off, and simply tell me to sit down, shut up, and create for a community that doesn't respect the work I put into it?

[nanshi_nibble]

Alaskasmith - nicely put!

Poobaloo I am sorry but I believe that you are wrong at saying that people taking our work is not plagiarisim.

Nowhere are we saying that these are no longer owned by maxis as outlined in their terms of agreement (which I do read acutally - you never know when someone is going to chuck in spyware and get you to agree to it) but we are saying that the new outfits we create from these are part of our intellectual property. We came up with the concept, designed it and really out of the goodness of our hearts, post it for people who do not wish, or cannot design, to download for their game. You downloading these items does not mean that you own it, or can use it without asking us for permission to recolour etc. We still retain the rights to that item.

Think of the painting of Heinz Beans by Andy Warhol. Well the copyright on the beans logo is owned by Heinz, Warhol just created something different from it (let's only hope he asked for permission first!). If you were to take Warhol's painting without asking and recoloured it and called it your own there would be a huge outcry - why? Because you infringed Warhol's IP and plagiarized his art. This is very similar to what we are arguing about here (although I do not profess to have half of Warhol's talent).

Keep in mind that a lot of creators would be quite happy to let you use their textures/maps/bumps if you ask. I certainly have given permission to everyone who has asked me.

Really it's just a matter of behaving like a decent human being.

[poobaloo]

I guess that's where we differ...

We are saying that the new outfits we create from these are part of our intellectual property. We came up with the concept, designed it and really out of the goodness of our hearts, post it for people who do not wish, or cannot design, to download for their game.
They're not part of your intellectual property. Period. No more than palying, say a driving game, and taking a driving route thru a city, and claiming anyone who takes your route and tweaks it is taking your "intellectual property"... you're PLAYing the Sims. You're not creating intellectual property. You are playing a game. That's where ppl are going wrong... All the time you spend in Paint Shop or Adobe, is just your way of playing the game.

You downloading these items does not mean that you own it, or can use it without asking us for permission to recolour etc. We still retain the rights to that item.
No, you don't own squat, nor does anyone need to ask you for permission, once you post your game play (aka creations) out on the web.

Keep in mind that a lot of creators would be quite happy to let you use their textures/maps/bumps if you ask.There is no such thing as "letting one use" your creations. It is my right to use them. You're not letting me do squat. From the minute you post your creation to the S2 website, it is part of what I bought, to download custom content. It is 100% my right to use your creations however I (or anybody) chose.

I certainly have given permission to everyone who has asked me.That's nice, but not your place to give someone the right to use something they bought.

Really it's just a matter of behaving like a decent human being.
I agree. It is very much an honor system, and I'm an honorable person. But once you talk plagirism, you're throwing honor out the window, and claiming legal right, which you simply don't have.

If you're saying it's an honor system, and perhaps "dishonorable" to claim something you didn't create as your own creation, that's cool. But you're claiming some legal right that doesn't exist. The legal right that exists, is that anyone who bought the S2 game can download custom content, and use it, tweak, it, and republish it however they want, with or without respect to the original creator.

-Poo.

[poobaloo]

I dunno... that's kind of the same as saying a book or a CD, as soon as it's available to the public to buy or read/listen to in a library, is no longer "plagiarize"able.We're not talking about a book or CD. We're talking about playing a game. Huge difference.
It's NOT a question of legality, copyrights, etc. It's a question of ethics, of morality.I'll agree w this. It is 100% bad ethics, by my definition of ethics. But it is not plagirism.
If we just sit by and say "oh quit whining so what if you had your stuff stolen" artists won't feel we care about them anymore, and leave.Again, nothing is being stolen in the first place...

This same discussion comes up in every game nowadays that involves sharing internet content, and it's the same thing every time. The ppl who publish content won't leave, cuz they enjoy posting the content. That's why they do it in the first place.
Why would I share my creations to people who don't respect my work enough to defend me when it's ripped off, and simply tell me to sit down, shut up, and create for a community that doesn't respect the work I put into it?You share your work cuz you enjoy doing so. Period. It has nothing to do w ppl "ripping you off". What are they costing you? Fame? Money? Honor? Nothing. I don't advocate "sit down and shut up". But you post your work to the community cuz you enjoy playing the game that way. No other reason. You're not providing a service. You're not earning income. You're just playing a game, and sharing your playing experience.

Everyone appreciates the community, and we all have a common standard of ethics. Most of us, at least.

But there is no plagirism going on.

[Vchat20]

one thing i got to ask though. if plagarism is that so irrelevant in the world of TS2, why in the world is it that when mentioned to the maxoids, they actually discuss it and not just say something like "plagarism isnt a problem here".

also, how do you explain the paysites? obviously by your idea, you have free reign over everything they have as soon as you bought the game. so why are there excpetions and they charge people for it.

i dont know where you come from, but creating custom content for the game is not "playing" the game. i couldve easily created custom content for ts2 before the game was even released. how do you explain that "playing" the game.

im sure Josh will have a nice long post in here before too long. i await his response to your posts. ought to be fun.

[ManagerJosh]

hahaha, Matthew knows me way too well.

I'm sorry to say poobaloo that while you lack the amount of respect the opinions of what others say, its very hard to respect your ideas.

The ideas of intellectual property is very broad. However, it isn't your say to say whether artists who create third party custom content are entitled to intellectual or artistic copyright. You are neither an officer of the courts, or a lawyer and can not define whether one do or do not own the rights to custom content.

Furthermore, if we lived by your definition of intellectual copyright, basically it is the same as implying artists like Thomas Kinkade who over show digital demos of their work are not entitled to intellectual copyright.

The concept of redistribution is what's at play. If someone resells someone elses work for profit, that's an issue. It becomes further a problem when others are able to get the item for free, while others need to pay for the item.

It is saying the same as this software we use to operate these forums. In order to use the software, we need to buy a license. It is "permission" to operate a copy of the software. There is intellectual copyrights involved for copyrighting the sourcecode.

Indeed it is your right to use them. However that's technically applicable to what "Maxis" creates or allows to exchange. However this isn't applicable to third-party custom content. For example, just because you buy a copy of Windows XP doesn't give you the permission to reverse engineer the software. That needs an additional license.

Ethics = Plagarism. It is simple. It is the same as turning in a paper that someone else wrote, and you getting credit. It is the same as you conducting the research and someone else gets all the credit for a discovery or find. Sadly to say, you can't say if it is stolen or not. It depends mainly on who redistributes it. If an artist decides to redistribute a file or permits it, fine it is legally able to share the content. However, if it is the wishes that a file remains exclusive to a site, and it gets redistributed without permission, that's theft. It is basically the same as someone uploading copies of copyrighted software like Windows or Office. Just because Microsoft publishes it and releases it on CD doesn't entitle us to free distributing via the internet.

I however agree that there should be better distribution habits. It is clear that artists should allow people to redistribute your work, given proper respect is given.

To say one is honorable, well that's somewhat debatable. An honorable person would be objective and would respect the opinions of others. I see none of that. What an artist looses is respect, a concept that evidently you don't understand. It's a slap to ones face when someone takes your work, and claims it as their own.

As stated before, you are neither an officer of the court, or a lawyer and can not say artists do not have the intellectual copyrights or not. You can't say if there is plagarism is going on or not. Because the fact is there is a lack of respect from people who create the original work, and people who redistribute it.

[KatAnubis]

We're not talking about a book or CD. We're talking about playing a game. Huge difference.
You are mistaken, Poobaloo. People who create something for The Sims 2 are not merely "playing a game." Just about anyone can "play the game" but to make custom content it takes another program (specifically a graphics program, and generally one better than Microsoft Paint) besides the game and a degree of skill/creativity not needed for just "playing a game." That puts what they do in the realm of intellectual property and plagarism.

The only real question is whether it is copyright infringement or not. Since Maxis has not only given permission but has encouraged custom content by providing a necessary tool (in this case Body Shop), they (who own the copyright) are putting their umbrella over the custom content makers. Reading the Eula makes this clear.

For the most part, the difference between plagarism and copyright is one of legal rights. If you own the copyright, then you can sue someone who infringes on that. If you "own" intellectual property, the issues become less clear. But certainly, a person whose intellectual property is "stolen" has a right to make an outcry over the issue and aim it at the perpetrator (or perpetrators.)

While I'm not a lawyer, I've been dealing with copyright and intellectual property issues for the last 20 years (in 3 different aspects of my life, not even counting this one). It's given me quite a bit of insight into the subject.

For more information on the issue, I suggest looking at a couple of sites which discuss this with more to back them up than just opinions of lay people.
http://www.nlc.bc.ca/citing/ (on the issue of plagarism)
http://mlcnet.org/services/copylinks.php (for links to various aspects of copyright law including official government websites)

And if you have a specific issue (like a copyright infringment of your work which you would like to see litigated), it's strongly recommended that you speak with someone who is a lawyer specializing in copyright law. The field is in a constant state of change that no general lawyer could possibly keep up with.

[poobaloo]

You are mistaken, Poobaloo. People who create something for The Sims 2 are not merely "playing a game." Just about anyone can "play the game" but to make custom content it takes another program (specifically a graphics program, and generally one better than Microsoft Paint) besides the game and a degree of skill/creativity not needed for just "playing a game." That puts what they do in the realm of intellectual property and plagarism.

The only real question is whether it is copyright infringement or not. Since Maxis has not only given permission but has encouraged custom content by providing a necessary tool (in this case Body Shop), they (who own the copyright) are putting their umbrella over the custom content makers. Reading the Eula makes this clear.

For the most part, the difference between plagarism and copyright is one of legal rights. If you own the copyright, then you can sue someone who infringes on that. If you "own" intellectual property, the issues become less clear. But certainly, a person whose intellectual property is "stolen" has a right to make an outcry over the issue and aim it at the perpetrator (or perpetrators.)I guess it is only to be expected that if I go into a Sims2 site, and speak in contrast to the general populace arguing in favor of protecting "their work", that I'll take lots of flack. The insults tho, are unwelcome. I'm just speaking my mind after all, and you all speak of "respect".

Now YES, you ARE just playing the game. That's all you bought the right to do. You did not buy the right to create & own the copyright rights to skins, or "parts" of the game, you own the right to play it, period.

Whether or not you choose to use another program (photoshop?) in conjunction w the Sims in no way changes things. One could argue that I need to use WinXP to play ANY game, so there's always "other" software involved. You're just using more, by choice.

Other than that, KatAnubis, I think your'e right on in your assessment:

Maxis has usurped all rights to all content created for the game. Pay sites are borderline illegal, just like I couldn't go reverse-engineer WinXP, and sell enhancements for it. Maxis has no reason to press the illegality of pay sites charging for what is essentially Maxis' content, because the multitude of sites sharing content actually fuels game sales. There is a disincentive for Maxis to crack down on ppl charging to make money off of selling content for their game, which they are not allowed to do, per the ELA.

There is no "plagirism". That was the subject of this thread. Disrespectful claiming of the play someone else did as one's own, perhaps. But not plagirism. That does not equate to plagirism.

Ppl argued that they had a legal right to their "intellectual property" they create for this game, and they don't. There is no intellectual property in this case, nor do you own any copyrights for things you create / share.

By the way, Nanshi, I have seen some of your creations around, and they are awesome!

[nanshi_nibble]

Thanks for your congratulations on 'my' skins poobaloo - but don't you think you should be thanking maxis? After all, according to your premise, I own 'squat' - therefore none of your praise should come to me at all.

[Vchat20]

Thanks for your congratulations on 'my' skins poobaloo - but don't you think you should be thanking maxis? After all, according to your premise, I own 'squat' - therefore none of your praise should come to me at all.
nice one :D

[J. M. Pescado]

Well, just cuz you don't own it doesn't mean you didn't make it. I also happen to be a believer in the concept of "stole it fair and square". After all, isn't it said that good artists imitiate, but great artists steal?

[poobaloo]

Thanks for your congratulations on 'my' skins poobaloo - but don't you think you should be thanking maxis? After all, according to your premise, I own 'squat' - therefore none of your praise should come to me at all.
Believe me, I thank Maxis greatly. Simcity is by far my favorite game of all time, from the original, thru SC4. The Sims is a close 2nd or 3rd. (Sorry Maxis, but Blizzard's Warcraft series I think beats the Sims, but Simcity is still topps!)

True, you don't own it. True, I could upload those images to the Sims2 site, and put whatever comments I want in. All LEGALLY, and without plagirizing you. But I wouldn't, nor would most of the fans. We have a certain amount of respect. Not all. But most. And all it takes for a good community is most. The cheaters will get their own rewards out of life, so be it.

All I can say is stop worrying about ppl "stealing" things you never even owned the rights to. Just enjoy playing the game, and the respect that you do earn for your talents. You ARE noticed, and appreciated.

[ManagerJosh]

Tell that to people who profit from creations they post on their site, but made by someone else completely, particularly when they claim they made it.

[Ningengirai]

Tell that to people who profit from creations they post on their site, but made by someone else completely, particularly when they claim they made it.
How does Maxis stand to this? I'm not sure, but if I created a game and sold it, I'd be a leeeetle irritated if someone then opened a website and offered downloads for a prize. They'd be using my game as 'platform' - and in the best of scenarios, might also have bought instead of copied/pirated it - but making money off of me, in a sense. Shouldn't Maxis be as irritated if someone is making money off of something they started/produced, without paying them royalties, so to speak?

( Not trying to start a fight, just really interested in that. )

[J. M. Pescado]

Judging from the fact that Maxis appears not to care, and openly lists sites as pay or free on their fansite list, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that the answer is "No".

Of course, with the "exchange", all of these "pay" sites are, in essence, shooting themselves in the foot, since absolutely nothing is stopping a user from downloading all of their content, then uploading it straight to the exchange where it's free....and there's not a **** thing those sites can do about it. They won't even be able to identify the perp, and I doubt Maxis is going to care about their problems.

[ManagerJosh]

there's no rule against being able to make money to strictly support the site. To profit for it for other purposes..different story.

[J. M. Pescado]

there's no rule against being able to make money to strictly support the site. To profit for it for other purposes..different story.That is toeing a rather thin line, you see: In theory, the idea of only supporting the site, I.E., not profiting from it, sounds fair. Obviously, of course, the cost of supporting the site is fixed: However much your webhosting service charges, that's how much it costs to support your site. At the same time, expanding subscriptions increases income at a fixed rate. At some point, the amount of income you take in will exceed the cost of supporting the site: This extra cash, we refer to as "profit".

Obviously, if it were entirely not for profit, the actual cost of running the site would be posted, and the fee would thus be a variable: The cost of the site divided by the number of people who wish to sustain subscription. However, the cost of the subscription remains fixed, which indicates that either they have not yet reached the break-even point and are simply absorbing the losses out of their own pockets, rather than raising rates to make ends meet (something I find unlikely), or they are making a profit.

[ManagerJosh]

There are definitely sites who do take advantage of this rule EA set by the Fansite License agreement.

Not all costs are variable. For example, most of our costs are fixed because we went out and negotitated contracts forcing our vendors to minimize expenditures. We only see a rise to them when we add additional services or servers.

For us at WorldSims, we're doing this strictly out of own pockets, with ad revenue covering maybe 5-10% of our expenditures each month and donations maybe covering our butt maybe .09%.

The rest comes out of our own pocket and investors/sponsors.

[J. M. Pescado]

Not all costs are variable. For example, most of our costs are fixed because we went out and negotitated contracts forcing our vendors to minimize expenditures. We only see a rise to them when we add additional services or servers.Either you meant that not all costs are FIXED, or you were just rephrasing what I already said: Costs as a rule, in nearly all webhosting packages, are fixed: They change only when you expand services, and if you do not, they can, for all intents and purposes, be considered to be fixed. Change of service is not an automatic thing, and certainly will not occur without your action and approval.

For us at WorldSims, we're doing this strictly out of own pockets, with ad revenue covering maybe 5-10% of our expenditures each month and donations maybe covering our butt maybe .09%.Wonderful. I just thought I'd politely point out that your ads suck, though. Couldn't you at least advertise something I might actually want to buy, preferrably at reasonable prices, and preferrably something I don't already know about? I know it seems relevant and all, but it seems kinda pointless to advertise TS2, seeing as people who come here are certainly already aware of it and often have it already....

And some of your ads just have me plain baffled, since I cannot, for the life of me, discern what it is they were trying to sell or why I should be interested if they have nothing to sell me.

[KatAnubis]

How does Maxis stand to this? I'm not sure, but if I created a game and sold it, I'd be a leeeetle irritated if someone then opened a website and offered downloads for a prize. They'd be using my game as 'platform' - and in the best of scenarios, might also have bought instead of copied/pirated it - but making money off of me, in a sense. Shouldn't Maxis be as irritated if someone is making money off of something they started/produced, without paying them royalties, so to speak?

( Not trying to start a fight, just really interested in that. )
I do think Maxis cares about this, but what really can they do about it? I noticed on the SimCity list and even the TS1 exchange that they had a tough time trying to figure out how to stop it. One of the big problems is how to tell if it *is* stolen. Someone can point at a piece and say "that's mine, they stole if from me." But without dragging all the information from the two people's computers showing the steps in making it (that the "thief" wouldn't have) or that it has an artists hidden watermark or that it is the style of art that is particular to them, it is just about impossible to prove. And I don't believe that *any* company has the resources to "judge" that sort of case. That's part of the problem.

The only real way to prevent it is when an artist seems themselves "stolen" on a site, to emphatically point out to all and sundry that it is indeed "stolen". People who did that for TS1 were denounced for it. It needs to be the same now.

I will say that Maxis has put in some safeguards to prevent some of the abuse, but it only affects recoloring and doesn't prevent a person from uploading it to the TS2 exchange.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I'm not sure Maxis are that bothered about this kind of behaviour even the sites that are making money from downloads. In the long run, as you pointed out Ningengirai, for people to make use of those downloads they need The Sims as a platform which, ultimately, means more money for Maxis.

One of the main reasons The Sims has become such a phenomenon is the huge community of players who create custom content for the game. Maxis has provided a fantastic framework of core gameplay and it's the fans who keep it constantly fresh by adding to it. Unlimited new content means greater longevity for the game. The community also provides fantastic free advertising for Maxis which also helps sales.

If Maxis clamped down and enforced draconian rules on distributing custom made content it would kill or severely reduce the community behind it and do nothing but harm sales for Maxis.

As for taking other peoples creations and claiming they are your own, that I don't condone at all. Sure, the original creator may not have any legal rights, but lets face it, it's just not nice. The original creator has but time and effort into designing and creating it so it's unfair for anyone else to claim credit for it.

[J. M. Pescado]

The original creator has but time and effort into designing and creating it so it's unfair for anyone else to claim credit for it.True. On the flipside, life ain't fair. You're not getting out of it alive.

[zydeco]

If Maxis clamped down and enforced draconian rules on distributing custom made content it would kill or severely reduce the community behind it and do nothing but harm sales for Maxis.
Isn't that exactly what they've done this time? All you can do is "color" makeup and clothing. It seems to me they went to extraordinary lengths to make sure there weren't tools available to make real custom content. I remember reading the forums at TSR and how many of the top designers were furious with maxis and their decision to only allow content to be uploaded to EA with no credit and their concerns with plagerism. It appeared that Maxis met with some of these people to hear their concerns. They came away feeling that Maxis didn't care. Since fan sites do have the ability to offer downloads and names are credited on content on the EA exchange they must have made some concessions. I'm sure I will purchase the next expansion pack but if I don't have access to more choice in objects, skins, clothes, build items..it will be my last purchase. I never used the items or people bundled in the game itself. My neighborhoods from TS1 are exclusively populated and decorated with items downloaded from fansites. It's all that kept the game interesting over the years. The handful of extraordinary hackers and designers certainly deserve credit for investing time and funds sharing their work with the sims community. Without them I think the sims would have died a natural death upon the release of House Party..the worst expansion pack of the series! lol

[J. M. Pescado]

Isn't that exactly what they've done this time? All you can do is "color" makeup and clothing. It seems to me they went to extraordinary lengths to make sure there weren't tools available to make real custom content.As much as I love a good paranoid conspiracy theory, I have to assert that it just seems untrue that they went to "extraordinary" lengths to make sure there weren't tools available. In TS1, the only real tool ever released was TMOG. Everything else had to be reverse-engineered by the users, a process Maxis did nothing to assist in. At some point, "Edith" was allegedly intended to be given to users, but like the empty promises of all politicians and corporations, this never materialized, and ultimately, "hacked" objects were created mostly by reverse-engineering.

Frankly, Maxis is, as is custom with corporations, fundamentally opposed to releasing any of their tools they used to create the game. The reason is rather obvious: The longer it takes people to reverse engineer the game, the larger a window they have to shovel expansion packs down the throats of their customers. By making vague promises of releasing tools, they then impede the reverse-engineering efforts by making people think that this will become unnecessary, and thus some people are discouraged from attempting to reverse-engineer the game. The tools, of course, will never really materialize. All in all, this is a logical, if not necessarily honorable, strategem.

I remember reading the forums at TSR and how many of the top designers were furious with maxis and their decision to only allow content to be uploaded to EA with no credit and their concerns with plagerism.Exaggerated nonsense. Content can be uploaded and downloaded from any website. It's not as if packages can only be uploaded to EA, and are saved to disk in a format fundamentally incompatible with the game unless first uploaded to EA.

As for "credit" and "plagiarism", if I were a Maxis employee, my thoughts on the matter would have been "That sounds like a personal problem to me, soldier.". I mean, think about. Let's suppose I sell "smart" waffle irons. The waffle irons remember what ingredients were placed within them, and how they were operated on. You have the option to publish this recipe on my company site, or do whatever you please with it, including deleting the database. Now, some miscreant steals your family waffle recipe from the waffle iron's database, and now claims he invented it.

How is this *MY* problem? You're the one who can't keep your waffle iron under your control.

It appeared that Maxis met with some of these people to hear their concerns. They came away feeling that Maxis didn't care.Why should they? This is a personal problem.

Since fan sites do have the ability to offer downloads and names are credited on content on the EA exchange they must have made some concessions.Well, the drawback to this is that uploaded content bears only the name and commentary of the first uploader, who can, essentially, "steal" the credit of any object uploaded to a fansite without being uploaded to EA at the same time. Boo frickety hoo.

The handful of extraordinary hackers and designers certainly deserve credit for investing time and funds sharing their work with the sims community.I rest my case. Maxis has never released real tools, and the current situation does not represent "extraordinary" lengths. Objects have always been created by hackers.

Without them I think the sims would have died a natural death upon the release of House Party..the worst expansion pack of the series! lolNo way. I'd have to say that the Vacation and Superstar packs were the ones REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel here, with content that just didn't seem well-integrated with the core game at all

[Cairo]

Thus, the trials and tribulations of putting your work online. If you don't want it copied, keep it tucked away safe in your game. As much as everyone would love to flame Maxis on this, I'm sure that not even they can come up with an ever ending solution to the multiples of prepubescent morons that scatter brainlessly throughout their website. Lest we forget that sooner or later, with the limited options and tools available to us, there's only so many ways you can modify a hairstyle or color before it's done the same way by someone else. And that, my friends, could be purely coinsidental. Not to mention, why would you waste your time, money, and sanity in pursuing someone that you "think" has stolen your idea? Child's play in my eyes...

[poobaloo]

Thus, the trials and tribulations of putting your work online. If you don't want it copied, keep it tucked away safe in your game. As much as everyone would love to flame Maxis on this, I'm sure that not even they can come up with an ever ending solution to the multiples of prepubescent morons that scatter brainlessly throughout their website. Lest we forget that sooner or later, with the limited options and tools available to us, there's only so many ways you can modify a hairstyle or color before it's done the same way by someone else. And that, my friends, could be purely coinsidental. Not to mention, why would you waste your time, money, and sanity in pursuing someone that you "think" has stolen your idea? Child's play in my eyes...
Well said. It is crazy that the word "plagirism" even comes up in regards to how we play a game. If you don't want your game-play methods used & shared by others, then don't post them.

Every time I see a posting on the s2 site, that says "do not distribute, copy, or modify", I just want to slap that person and say "Why the heck did you post it out there then???" It's just ridiculous.

[DevilsAdvocate]

It's not crazy at all. If someone has gone to the trouble of designing and creating and outfit, offers it for download completely free of charge so that others can enjoy it and then some punk takes that file and redistributes it removing the original authors name and claims they have made it, how is that fair?

I can only imagine the huge amount of hours people like Nanshi_Nibble and Amy Sims have put into their many creations. They've not just taken original Maxis skins and modified a few colours here and there, their work features original artwork that shows real skill. They don't profit from their creations, they distribute them to benefit the fans of the Sims. They deserve the credit for their work.

If you condone other people taking that work and then claiming they have made it then you show no respect for the hard work the real designers have put into it. I find that sad and insulting.

"Why the heck did you post it out there then?" Yes, wouldn't the Sim community be a richer place if everyone heeded your advice and kept their creations to themselves? I think not.

Download one of my outfits from SimStuff, Poobaloo. Take a look at the readme text file and feel free to slap me across the face.

[Cairo]

If you condone other people taking that work and then claiming they have made it then you show no respect for the hard work the real designers have put into it. I find that sad and insulting.
I'm not "condoning" anything. I'm simply stating that this is what will happen when you take risks such as posting something online. Do you not realize that this happens everyday with everything that touches the net?? Believe me, I've posted enough messages that refer to how much I love and adore fansites for everything they're worth. And if having things stolen means I will have to pay for these sites in the future, then so be it. Just one more thing the dishonest buggers can ruin for us...however, if you put something out there and it gets copied, I'm not going to cry for you. Risk my dear...risk.

[alaskasmith]

"If you don't want your game-play methods used & shared by others, then don't post them."

Hmmmm. I am starting to think that is what I will do. I am tired of seeing my stuff left and right and upside down without credit to me, I am tired of seeing my stuff ripped off onto CDs for sale on Ebay.com (I mean really, WHY sell something THAT'S ALREADY FREE??) I am tired of people in the Sims community telling me I shouldn't care about these things, and people with no legal background trying to define internet copyright laws at me when they change practically every second and are different in my country ANYWAY.

Why the #$%& should I continue to give to this community? Tell me why? It feels like WORK to me now, except I'm not getting paid and no one appreciates it.
It's not my attitude that needs to change. It's YOURS. All of you who say it's no big deal. It's enough to keep me from posting any more skins until I calm down. In the meantime, I'm sure my older stuff that I used to learn to skin for the Sims 2 will be all OVER the place without credit, and the newer, better stuff will never been seen by anyone except me, in my own game.

Since, of course, that seems to be what people prefer. *nods*

[Cairo]

Wow...I'm just going to back away from this one. Maybe I don't understand the point to getting so upset about something like this. And by all means, feel how you want, but I state MY opinion...not what I think people should or shouldn't do. I give credit where credit is due, you should take your speech to Maxis and tell them to post it to all those who are stealing your work if it's that important to you.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I'm not "condoning" anything. I'm simply stating that this is what will happen when you take risks such as posting something online. Do you not realize that this happens everyday with everything that touches the net??No problem, Cairo, my comments weren't directed at you. I understand that it's a sad fact that once a designer releases a skin into the public domain it's subject to unscrupulous people repackaging it as their own and claiming the credit. I'd be naive if I thought this wasn't going to happen. And yes, legally, there's nothing the original designer can do about it. In a perfect world this just wouldn't happen. Sadly, this world is far from perfect.

What I object to is the people who seem to think that the original designer has no call to be upset by this blatant theft of credit. It shows no respect to the work and creativity that designer has put into their creation.

Cairo, you mentioned that there are only a finite number of hairstyles, make-up colours, outfits etc. and another designer may make a skin very similar to an existing one. I have no problem with this at all. Coincidences happen. Nor do I have a problem with someone being inspired by the work of another and creating something themselves in a similar vein. What I do have a problem with is when someone downloads a skin and re-posts it elsewhere claiming they are the one who created it.

Bottom line: If a designer has spent several hours pouring their creativity into a skin then they deserve credit for it. If someone else claims credit for this then the original designer is entitled to feel cheated.

Alaska, I know it's frustrating but please don't let this stop you posting your creations. It'd be a sad loss if you did. :disappointed:

[ManagerJosh]

That's really pathetic Alaska... I too am really depressed when people just rip my artists off (even the guest ones at SimStuff) and it sucks where people profit from creations they didn't create.

[J. M. Pescado]

The key to avoiding content plagiarism is to make sure your content is sufficiently famous as to be unmistakably yours. I mean, nobody plagiarizes the Mona Lisa. Why? Because nobody who tried it would be able to convince anyone that it was their creation!

With that in mind, the key here is, when you distribute anything, not to just distribute it to a few isolated places and let it spread by grapevine: Drop it like gigantic bomb everywhere. Make sure anyone who notices it will notice it is yours.

Alternatively, you could just stop getting so worked up about it. I mean, it's just a game.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Heheh, it's a bit of a catch 22 situation though, J.M. It's hard to get sufficiently famous if there are others claiming credit for your work. ;)

[J. M. Pescado]

Heheh, it's a bit of a catch 22 situation though, J.M. It's hard to get sufficiently famous if there are others claiming credit for your work. ;)That's where the ninja death commandos fit in.

[poobaloo]

Why the #$%& should I continue to give to this community? Tell me why?
Because you want to.

That's the only reason any of us post anything, or even play the game in the first place. You're not performing a community service. You are self-indulging in a game. And if you think your time is so noble, quite frankly, I'd rather you donate your time to my neighborhood's schools, or some other better social service.

You're not doing anyone any favors. You're playing the game cuz you enjoy it. You enjoy sharing your stuff, period. If you don't enjoy it, then stop. It's that easy.

If the ppl who "steal" your stuff & repackage it piss you off that much, then I guess you should get ready to be pissed off a lot in life. Or at least in the Sims, cuz those ppl are playing the game perfectly w/in their legal rights to do so.

Really. It's just a game.

[ManagerJosh]

poob, perhaps rather than hiding behind the arguments of "its just a game" or "you legally don't have any rights" perhaps you could understand it from alaska's point of view that everytime she creates something, at least with some decency give credit to where it belongs.

And you know what, she can stop sure. For people like you, no wonder it is such a temptation for her to stop creating. I would too if people like you gave no respect to people's hard work.

But i do agree that there should be more sharing involved. I don't agree with the concept its all for one and none for all.

[poobaloo]

What I object to is the people who seem to think that the original designer has no call to be upset by this blatant theft of credit.
You misinterpret me, if this is at all directed towards me. I am TOTALLY 100% in favor of a designer's right to be upset about this.

But this thread is not about being upset at copiers. It's about plagirism. That's why I spoke up.

Designers have every right to be upset any time anyone copies something you do. But to call it plagirism is wrong. To put "do not redistribute" warnings in your content is like me going out on the street and writing my name on the sidewalk and claiming it mine. You just can't. It's all public domain.

You are not "creating" something. You're just walking the sidewalk. You're playing the game. That's where ppl go wrong... Ppl have a hard time discerning between what they own (the right to play the game) and what they don't (the game content that maxis owns all rights to once publicly posted, which you are only allowed to "use").

It's not plagirism!

That's my point.

[poobaloo]

poob, perhaps rather than hiding behind the arguments of "its just a game" or "you legally don't have any rights" perhaps you could understand it from alaska's point of view that everytime she creates something, at least with some decency give credit to where it belongs.

And you know what, she can stop sure. For people like you, no wonder it is such a temptation for her to stop creating. I would too if people like you gave no respect to people's hard work.
Why do you insult me for voicing my opinion?

I respect the community's work as much as anyone, and have never "plagirized" or even copied someone's work as my own. I have better things to do.. and if I ever downloaded something and changed it for the better, I'd have no objection to saying "Alaska created this originally, and I made these changes" Big deal. But if Alaska posted a note in the readme that said "Do not modify or redistribute", then she's overstepped her rights. She has no right to DEMAND a tribute.

It's like respect... you can't demand it... it is only given.

Nor, do I have a problem w giving credit. She is welcome to post "created by Alaska, enjoy!" anywhere, and I would say Oh cool, another outfit by Alaska. Great. Give credit. Don't demand such of others tho...

"For ppl like you"... What kind is that?

I have nothing against giving credit. But once again, this thread is about plagirism. I'm against the designer claiming a legal right to the designs. That's all. Moral right, sure. Ethical right, sure. But legal, no.

That's all. No plagirism.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Downloading a skin created by someone else, changing the credit so that it claims to be your own (called 'lying' last time I checked) and uploading it to another site has nothing to do with playing the Sims. This is something that happens outside the program entirely and has nothing to do with gameplay.

Designers fully expect people to download their creations, add them to the game and play them, that's why they do it. But what they don't like to see is other people lying and saying they are responsible for that creation. Are you condoning people who lie like this? Would you do the same?

Alaska isn't doing anybody any favours?? Nice to see you have such a low opinion of her talent. She has spent many hours creating original artwork for no financial gain. She deserves to be recognized for that hard work and talent and it saddens me to see people who disagree.

[DevilsAdvocate]

You misinterpret me, if this is at all directed towards me. I am TOTALLY 100% in favor of a designer's right to be upset about this.

But this thread is not about being upset at copiers. It's about plagirism. That's why I spoke up.
Then maybe we are at cross purposes.

I've been arguing this from an ethical point of view, never a legal one. As I said before, I agree totally the original designer has no legal rights to their creation especially once they release it into the public domain. Maybe I am at fault here, but from your posts I thought you were implying that there was also no ethical problem with people claiming credit for the work of others. To me, that implication belittled the hard work the original designer had put into their creation.

I am a firm believer in 'credit where credit is due'. I've always put 'Please do not copy, modify or redistribute without permission' in my readme files. I'd seen that more as a polite request than a demand. :)

[alaskasmith]

#1: You can still plagiarize something in the public domain. As I said before, try handing in a university paper that you copied and pasted entirely from a well-known piece of work, and see how long you last in that institution. Perhaps a definition of the word "plagiarism" would help here:

plagiarism: n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

from dictionary.com

See? It has nothing to do with copyright, public domain, legality. All plagiarism IS, is taking something of someone else's and saying you did it. By that definition of the word it IS used correctly to describe the lame things happening in the Sims community today.

#2: I still haven't heard a decent reason why I should continue to share my stuff. It just isn't fun anymore when I don't get appreciation, credit or respect from it. So I dunno. Maybe the paysite route would assist in preventing some theft (and maybe help pay my rent while I go to school?) Maybe not, with the whole Sims Exchange thing.

The thing about the plagiarism situation is, there's not a whole lot people can really do about it. Except not do it themselves, and hope others will have enough respect not to as well.

[poobaloo]

Then maybe we are at cross purposes.

I've been arguing this from an ethical point of view, never a legal one. As I said before, I agree totally the original designer has no legal rights to their creation especially once they release it into the public domain. Maybe I am at fault here, but from your posts I thought you were implying that there was also no ethical problem with people claiming credit for the work of others. To me, that implication belittled the hard work the original designer had put into their creation.

I am a firm believer in 'credit where credit is due'. I've always put 'Please do not copy, modify or redistribute without permission' in my readme files. I'd seen that more as a polite request than a demand. :)
I wouldn't copy your work and claim it my own, whether you said please, or made outright demands, or claimed yourself to be the almighty and would strike me down if I did so. I wouldn't copy it cuz I'm not that way. As are most ppl. If you tell a software pirater "please" don't pirate software, they still will. It's just how some ppl are. Doesn't make it okay, it's just not illegal in this case.

If you say please do not copy or redistribute, that's cool, and such a notice would not upset me, since you're asking. Tho I wouldn't have copied it in the first place.

I said many times it's dishonorable, and perhaps ethically bad, and unappreciated by the general community. But not plagirism. I do not like when ppl who will create skins will go to the extent to say it's outright plagirism (illegal stealing of work) when it's not. It's perhaps amoral, but that's it. Plagirism doesn't govern morality, it governs the illegal copying of work, which this is not.

If your case is that this is disrespectful, I would defend you tooth & nail. But if your case is that this is plagirism (as the thread originally claimed) then I will defend the alleged plagirists, who are not in fact plagirising.

I think we've come to agreement here. I just see these concepts of "plagirism" and "intellectual property" come up in thread after thread in games that share content nowadays, and it gets old. There is no such thing. All you own is the right to play the game. Period. No property, real or intellectual, no rights to the skins, or whatever, no right to run a pay site for profit and sell your content, and no right to demand credit, ever, for credit is never "due" (mandated)... it is only "given" by those who choose to respect the creators.

[poobaloo]

#2: I still haven't heard a decent reason why I should continue to share my stuff. It just isn't fun anymore when I don't get appreciation, credit or respect from it.
A few ppl don't respect you, and thus you feel those who do, don't matter? You do get respect. From me, for one. From many others. Just not from a small grp of ppl who will steal your ideas. Who cares. They'll get their lot in life. There are always bad apples in a bunch, and I'm the type of person to not let them ruin the game for me. A few morons can ruin it for you?

If it's not fun anymore, then you shouldn't be playing. It's a game. Games are about fun. That's the only reason you should continue to play. If you enjoy it.

If you don't like it, then stop following the message boards about a game that you don't even enjoy. Don't you have better things to do? There's a million games I don't like, and a few that I do. So I play the ones I do like.

I'm guessing you DO like the game still, or you wouldn't even be out here bothering to read this. So if you want to skin, skin. But don't whine about the bad apples. Every tree has them. Deal with it, move on. It's a game. Enjoy it, and stop worrying about "credit".

[poobaloo]

taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own
These "words and ideas" are not "your own" once you publicly post them! You don't own squat, other than the right to play the game. So assuming you abide by the ELA, you play the game, and own nothing else. No words, no ideas. Your "ideas" in a philosophical sense, are yours... but you don't own the "idea of an outfit you created" once you publicly post it. You then give it up to the world, and all rights to that idea, to Maxis. You just don't own it any more. You agreed to such when you clicked "I agree" in the game installation.

This is where I draw the line. Like I said, it's not plagirism. You're playing the game. From the moment you share your creation, you have given up rights to the "words and ideas", and they are no longer yours, in any way, shape, or form!

It is disrespectful to claim improper credit, but NOT plagirism, since you no longer can lay claim to the ideas.

That is why it is not plagirism.

[ManagerJosh]

So just what is your definition of plagarism?

And just an FYI, I'm trying to understand your point of view here, but in the process, I'd like for you to understand other's point of view.

My goal isn't to insult you, rather understand how you think and understand why you belive what you do.

You may think I'm wrong. You're welcome to think others are wrong, however I feel there is always something correct somewhere, regardless how trivial it is.

BTW, Alaska owns a lot more than you think. She owns her own ideas, her thoughts, and a lot of respect. You aren't in a position to say she does not own squat because to me, she owns a lot more a few other people will ever have.

And as I've stated before, you aren't a lawyer, and therefore can't interpret the law saying whether an artist makes something owns it or not.

[alaskasmith]

I disagree that creating Sim skins is merely "playing the game." The reason I disagree is because almost everything I create, though I use Maxis textures as a template, is almost completely new from their skins. It's the same level of skill I'd use to create a digital painting, and I believe art can CERTAINLY be plagiarized.

Maxis owns my .package files according to their EUA. I doubt they own my .psd files from Photoshop though.

Anyway, I am tired of arguing this. If one respected a Sims artist they'd politely abide by their conditions in the readme file, they wouldn't hack up/recolour their creations and call it new, and they certainly wouldn't deny them the right to be annoyed when other people do. Yeah, it happens. But maybe it'd happen LESS if people didn't have such a lax attitude about it. If you see skins that are obviously someone else's, contact the creator and the site they're hosted on. Shrugging it off'll just continue to alienate and upset the original creators (like me) until they don't want to be part of the uncaring community anymore.

As for me, I'll take a bit of a break from skinning and explore more of the gameplay. I haven't yet managed to get a Sim to Platinum level yet.

[ManagerJosh]

Just a FYI JM, I removed your post.

It was really rude JM, very very rude.....

[J. M. Pescado]

Just a FYI JM, I removed your post.

It was really rude JM, very very rude.....I don't see why. I was genuinely curious as to how such a claim was possible, since it didn't seem to make any sense: How can somebody make entirely different eyes all based off of pictures of their own, unless they actually have that many different eyes? I mean, they looked like very nice eyes, but how is such a thing possible?

[DevilsAdvocate]

These "words and ideas" are not "your own" once you publicly post them! You don't own squat, other than the right to play the game. So assuming you abide by the ELA, you play the game, and own nothing else. No words, no ideas. Your "ideas" in a philosophical sense, are yours... but you don't own the "idea of an outfit you created" once you publicly post it. You then give it up to the world, and all rights to that idea, to Maxis. You just don't own it any more. You agreed to such when you clicked "I agree" in the game installation.

This is where I draw the line. Like I said, it's not plagirism. You're playing the game. From the moment you share your creation, you have given up rights to the "words and ideas", and they are no longer yours, in any way, shape, or form!

It is disrespectful to claim improper credit, but NOT plagirism, since you no longer can lay claim to the ideas.

That is why it is not plagirism.No-one is disagreeing with you that the original designer can claim no legal rights to their ideas once they've released them into the public domain. As I've mentioned several times before this debate is not about the legal rights.

You seem to think plagiarism can only exist when it is defined by the law. This is not the case at all. If you look at the dictionary definition of plagiarism Alaska kindly posted you'll notice it makes no mention of legality. The word 'plagiarism' simply describes the act of copying an idea and claiming it as your own. Plagiarism occured long before copyright laws were invented to control it.

For example, let's say someone took one of Alaska's skins and re-posted as their own work. If you deny this is plagiarism, i.e. that person has copied original work and claimed it as their own idea, then you deny that Alaska created that idea and skin in the first place. To deny that shows absolutely no respect for her time, effort and talent.

Again, this debate is not about the legality of plagiarism, it is about the act itself.

[KatAnubis]

I'm not "condoning" anything. I'm simply stating that this is what will happen when you take risks such as posting something online. Do you not realize that this happens everyday with everything that touches the net?? Believe me, I've posted enough messages that refer to how much I love and adore fansites for everything they're worth. And if having things stolen means I will have to pay for these sites in the future, then so be it. Just one more thing the dishonest buggers can ruin for us...however, if you put something out there and it gets copied, I'm not going to cry for you. Risk my dear...risk.
I think the reason that they put that message in is that they are reminding people that they shouldn't do it. It wouldn't necessarily dawn on people that they shouldn't recolor, redistribute, etc. without that. (And the people who don't care who they hurt, won't pay any attention anyway.)

[DevilsAdvocate]

Let me see if I understand the views of either side of this debate, Poobaloo:

I and several others define plagiarism as: taking someone's work or ideas as if they were your own.

You define plagiarism as: taking someone's copyrighted work or ideas as if they were your own.

Have I understood your position correctly? You can only plagiarize an artist if their work is legally protected by copyright law?

Surely, if this were the case then plagiarism cannot have existed before copyright law was invented? If so, how did copyright law even come into existence? Was it implemented to prevent something that didn't even exist yet? No, it was implemented to stop the act of plagiarism. Plagiarism didn't spring into being because of it.

[ManagerJosh]

Many schools and universities nowadays classifies plagarism as you taking work from someone else without citation. That includes documents that other students writes, and those works are not even copyrighted yet you can still get in trouble for it.

[poobaloo]

I and several others define plagiarism as: taking someone's work or ideas as if they were your own.
I will agree w your definition of plagirism. But as I said, in this case, for example, a skin made by Alaska is not "work or ideas" of hers in the first place. There is no intellectual property here. If ANYthing, somone who copies a publicly downloaded outfit, is plagirising maxis, not alaska. Alaska may have made it, but once she posts it, she no longer can claim the rights to that work or those ideas, cuz she willingly gives up all right to any credit for it by uploading it.

Who made it becomes secondary. It is public domain stuff.

Very rude to copy, but not plagirising. It's no longer her "work" once she donates it to the community.

That's like... donating my time to a church, then demanding ppl shake my hand when entering. Or donating a car to charity, but expecting to get rides in it.

No. Once you upload a sim, skin, or whatever, it is no longer your work. You may have made it, but it's not yours anymore, and you are no more entitled to it than me, or anyone else.

Can GM claim ownership of my car? They MADE it after all... No. I bought it, just like I bought the rights to enjoy, download, modify, and repost skins. Can they even demand that I don't rip the "GM" logo off of it, and put "made by poobaloo?" No, of course not. It's my car. It's my skins. You post them, they belong to the community.

Some ppl have respect, others dont. But it's not plagirism, cuz it's no longer your work once you upload (donate) it.

[ManagerJosh]

Based on your definition, let's take an artist into example. Thomas Kinkade.

He uploads digial versions to let people see samples his work. Does this mean his work is now public domain? And that this gives others the right to reproduce his work without his authorization?

[poobaloo]

Based on your definition, let's take an artist into example. Thomas Kinkade.

He uploads digial versions to let people see samples his work. Does this mean his work is now public domain? And that this gives others the right to reproduce his work without his authorization?
Totally different.

An artist didn't do his work under an ELA that if he uploaded that work, it then becomes public domain, and all rights to it's content, become that of EA Games.

[ManagerJosh]

The thing is the EULA doesnt' even define whether an artist owns rights or not. It's completely unclear. Moreover this issue has not been addressed by the courts nor will it ever be until someone decides to challenge the question.

[J. M. Pescado]

I don't think your odds of challenging a content plagiarist in court are terribly good. There's the difficulty in finding the offender, a lawyer willing to take the case, and a judge who won't fling it out of court as frivolous.

[alaskasmith]

I don't see why. I was genuinely curious as to how such a claim was possible, since it didn't seem to make any sense: How can somebody make entirely different eyes all based off of pictures of their own, unless they actually have that many different eyes? I mean, they looked like very nice eyes, but how is such a thing possible?
Hey, if anyone should be able to recolour my skins, it should be me. ;)

The aquamarine ones are actually the un-recoloured ones. They're also the most fake looking. Weird lighting in the original photo.