Men chasing after the women vs the sims way

[twocows]

I'll repeat the Subject line:

Men chasing after the women vs the sims way of conversing with a woman for attraction.

WHAT THE HELL is that? i mean seriously!!!

this is a human simulator...

when a guy sees a hot female he should do what men do. Drool. Chase. Fight for her.

None of that exists in the Sims 2... :eek: :eek:

You have to converse with a female to even NOTICE her!! ***??

sorry if i sound angry but its true.

I totally agree with this review that I found on amazon.com below.

.....1. The relationships made in this game are difficult and even harder to maintain. How come you have to interact with everyone and they do not even notice you are alive? They never intiate any conversation with you when you are at a community lot or at your house. The men in the game have a unisex personality and do not differ from the women in the house. What's the difference between making the men, men and the women, women? Their interests are the same, their conversational options are the same, "Joke" and "Chat". Starting the relationships is VERY slow, you can talk and get close to people and 2 days later they aren't your friend anymore. Snore! There is no general idea of beauty in the game, the looks don't matter, so it doesn't matter what you look like and if this is a simulation game what's real about that? Marxism in its truest form. ...... (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1Q5B7SV0LDT0N/ref=cm_cr_auth/002-5667843-4109631?%5Fencoding=UTF8) ((Click the text to read the rest)

On the positive side I cant wait to torture the hell outta my sims .. IF i can figure out how to do the things they fear..

[Rowanstaff]

I find myself disagreeing with almost everything in twocows post and that review. You get from your Sims what you bring to them. You get your interaction reflected back at you in their behavior. The Sims are human simulations but you, the player, are the simulator.

For example: I can buiilt the perfect flight simulator but each pilot will fly it differently. It is each pilot's abilities that determine the success, enjoyment, and difficulty of the flight. The Sims are no different.

As for male characters not being "male" enough, I must of course ask "Male by who's standard? Based on whose behavior?" What you think is the "standard" male behavior around women reveals more about you than it does about any standard. The simple fact is this: different people translate masculinity differently, to varying degrees, as do different generations, and different cultures. The only standard is a physical one, that is to say an individual's sex. But gender is not standard. It is each Sim's player that determines the standard masculinity of his or her Sims. Want them to chase every skirt, drool over hotties, then do so. Want them to fight? Easy, have them pick a few fights. But do so knowing it is your estimation of masculinity at work, not a universal standard. Maxis has gone out of their way to make most characters nearly blank slate until they are developed; players choose lifestyle, preference, demeanor, and such; to allow the player to control the standard he or she plays under.

Here's a hypothetical for you, in opposition on your standard of men chasing after women: What if the person Maxis used to program TS2 male personality traits were gay and he decided his standards should apply to the game's masculinity? How many people would find it difficult to play the game successfully?

In short, while I do not find your post offensive I do find it fundimentally flawed. It attempts to find fault with the game for the way you choose to play it. While you use a review as support it is a review that shares the same flaw. If it were a hard-coded issue, something unchangable in the game your argument would be sound, but everything you have described is playable any time you want, you just have to make it happen.

[twocows]

The point i was trying to make was a male should be distracted by a "hot woman" in the same room because thats how men are in real life.

The game has lots of nifty little things but it lacks that.

Dont get me wrong. I dont want to turn this into Leasure Suit Larry but its lacking that touch.

[pretty_princess]

your right:eek: i mean!!!i.--:speechless: ......!!if only we could chat with the maxis staff again:( they dont know alot of wat we want!!!i want more life in it:cool: more like real life....more actions,objects,and more.



MORE!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Mirelly]

The point i was trying to make was a male should be distracted by a "hot woman" in the same room because thats how men are in real life.
Wrong. sims are frequently distracted by other sims they are attracted to. Sims are attracted to other sims on various grounds but beauty isn't one of them. Heck! If the game were to be hard-wired to judge sim attractiveness it would almost certainly please no-one. Regarding beauty, psychologists can only agree that it is not a function that is readily reduced to easily computable algorithms ... and why should it be? The human brain has billions of times the processing power of even the most super of super-computers.

As for your expressed desire that sims should behave according your perception of what is 'real life' ... I advise you to tread 'real life' with extreme caution. The modern, 21st century, woman is increasingly more likely to grind her heels into slathering, drooling tongues than to respond simperingly. :cool:

[pretty_princess]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Zootyzoot]

when a guy sees a hot female he should do what men do. Drool. Chase. Fight for her.
a male should be distracted by a "hot woman" in the same room because thats how men are in real life.

Wow. I'm glad I've never met one of these 'real life men' of which you speak. They sound obnoxious.

[twocows]

Oh for crying out loud you people are really hammering me here.

I was merely stating the lacking obvious.

[Zootyzoot]

I get your point about attraction being bourne purely out of social interaction rather than based on first appearances, but like Mirelly and Rowanstaff said, the game would piss off far too many people if it decided who was attractive and who wasn't. It can be tedious working on the relationships of Sims who you want to have a purely physical relationship, especially given the relatively limited way in which they interact, but I prefer this way than male Sims acting in the way you describe, which, according to my experience at least, is both unrealistic and would be incredibly grating and a touch offensive.

[Kristalrose]

The point i was trying to make was a male should be distracted by a "hot woman" in the same room because thats how men are in real life.



Ummm, haven't you seen the "attraction" action qued up? The gal walks into the room, and the guy whistles and snaps his fingers at her, while her picture is shown in the little thought-bubble so you know who he's hot for?

After reading your posts, I'm just wondering how much you've gotten to actually play the game. Because this is something that's pretty visible pretty quickly.

[Kristalrose]

I find myself disagreeing with almost everything in twocows post and that review. You get from your Sims what you bring to them. You get your interaction reflected back at you in their behavior. The Sims are human simulations but you, the player, are the simulator.

For example: I can buiilt the perfect flight simulator but each pilot will fly it differently. It is each pilot's abilities that determine the success, enjoyment, and difficulty of the flight. The Sims are no different.

As for male characters not being "male" enough, I must of course ask "Male by who's standard? Based on whose behavior?" What you think is the "standard" male behavior around women reveals more about you than it does about any standard. The simple fact is this: different people translate masculinity differently, to varying degrees, as do different generations, and different cultures. The only standard is a physical one, that is to say an individual's sex. But gender is not standard. It is each Sim's player that determines the standard masculinity of his or her Sims. Want them to chase every skirt, drool over hotties, then do so. Want them to fight? Easy, have them pick a few fights. But do so knowing it is your estimation of masculinity at work, not a universal standard. Maxis has gone out of their way to make most characters nearly blank slate until they are developed; players choose lifestyle, preference, demeanor, and such; to allow the player to control the standard he or she plays under.

Here's a hypothetical for you, in opposition on your standard of men chasing after women: What if the person Maxis used to program TS2 male personality traits were gay and he decided his standards should apply to the game's masculinity? How many people would find it difficult to play the game successfully?

In short, while I do not find your post offensive I do find it fundimentally flawed. It attempts to find fault with the game for the way you choose to play it. While you use a review as support it is a review that shares the same flaw. If it were a hard-coded issue, something unchangable in the game your argument would be sound, but everything you have described is playable any time you want, you just have to make it happen.


Most intelligent post in this thread so far! :)

BTW, I want to download the sim in your signature and play with him. (slobber, tounge hanging out, "hey, wanna do something about it!?"):laugh:

[alaskasmith]

Sims of both genders have the "Attraction" thing happen to romance Sims. And there is some idea of beauty in the game, which I personally find odd, which is that "thin" Sims are more likely to get a mate. (There's also the huge fear of "getting fat" that popularity Sims have.) I find it a bit odd since in real life humans like other humans of all kinds of body shapes. :rolleyes:

Edit: I have no idea how one could code for attractiveness anyways with the slider system making the faces. It just wouldn't work.

[Rowanstaff]

Kristalrose stated:
Most intelligent post in this thread so far! :)

BTW, I want to download the sim in your signature and play with him.

I'll take those both as compliments.

The guy in my siggy is an old character I made long ago. He is like me if I had grown up in 14th century Scotland (yes, anachronistiic). It was this character I was playing in character online when I met my future wife in an RP chat room called The Keep. We are happily married with 3 boys. Because of this sedimental attachment I used him as the father of my self-portrait Sims 2 family.

[mangrovejane]

I personally am glad attractiveness of the characters is not a overriding attraction trait for this game. What happens if you want to create bizarre looking creatures, Orcs or ghouls or green skinned aliens. Where would those creatures fit on an attractiveness meter. Maybe they aren't attrative to us but they might be attractive to creatures of the same type. But then we would get a racial bias in the game that I would rather not be there as well. I love my sims in all shapes, colours and sizes and I am glad they like each other that way too. :)

[Ningengirai]

Sims of both genders have the "Attraction" thing happen to romance Sims. And there is some idea of beauty in the game, which I personally find odd, which is that "thin" Sims are more likely to get a mate. (There's also the huge fear of "getting fat" that popularity Sims have.) I find it a bit odd since in real life humans like other humans of all kinds of body shapes.

It's not odd at all. In fact, I find it scarily realistic, considering where the media, magazines, fashion shows et all are going. In order to be popular ( as determined by the fashion etc ) today, you are almost forced/required to be thin because it's an ongoing trend.

I also think it's ridiculous, but that's a personal rant and doesn't belong here.

Thankfully, though, Maxis have refrained from adding the body type "so thin you can count ribs". Now that would scare me.

[alaskasmith]

Actually when you look at the meshes for "fit" Sims straight on, they're Barbie doll stick people. Completely unrealistic. Normally we see them from slightly above, though, which kinda balances them out.

Besides the pot belly, the "fat" sim is closer to my body shape... and I'm unhealthily underweight according to my BMI.

[Rowanstaff]

alaskasmith let us know:
and I'm unhealthily underweight according to my BMI.

Yeah, the BMI is crap. It is toted by life insurance companies, weight loss gurus, and nutritionists as the first and last judge of fitness. They're nuts. I weight train and do tae kwan do (go Brandt's Association!) and on the BMI appear morbidly obese. Anyone who knows me knows I'm fit as a horse (with kicks to match), but I cannot lose weight. My training causes me to gain muscle for any fat I lose. Other weight trainers I know look like walking coronaries to the BMI when they are in fact in the best health of their lives. The BMI is just a number, just data, and, as any computer programmer will tell you, data is worthless unless it is translated into something meaningful.

[Blower]

The idea is sound, that a very attractive male/female in real life would get more attention i.e one beautiful girl would have 4 guys trying to talk to her while the other 3 girls sat with each other. same reversed.

But in a universal game they have to tread very carefully in terms of opinion forcing, looks would be one of them. Imagine if gay couples couldnt get married in game, there would be outrage. Same if the ultimate good looking girl was a 110lbs blonde/blue eyed caucasian.

I realise your just saying "it would be cool if" - and i totally agree, it would be great if this happend in community lots, people should even loose fun/social when they have a crush on someone who doesn't return it. It would be good if some women plain don't like you and you have to move on to find a different mate.

As for what is deemed as a realisitic figure, I think the stages are just classed as health - and a simple way to display this is weight. We all know a big healthy guy/gal and we all know a skinny person who looks like they just woke up all the time/ gets sick frequently. Just accept that the majority of unusually heavy people are unhealthy. I think the stick figure should be in the game for people who frequently get amber hunger :)

[Kristalrose]

I'll take those both as compliments.

The guy in my siggy is an old character I made long ago. He is like me if I had grown up in 14th century Scotland (yes, anachronistiic). It was this character I was playing in character online when I met my future wife in an RP chat room called The Keep. We are happily married with 3 boys. Because of this sedimental attachment I used him as the father of my self-portrait Sims 2 family.

Good, because that's how I meant them. :)



That is sooo cool. :) I got to know my husband playing Dungeons and Dragons back in the 1980's in High School. I'll never forget it: He sent his charector charging into certain death to try to save my charector. That's how I knew he liked me. ;)

[Kristalrose]

Well, again, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Last night I was making a "fat" sim, and after I dressed her and got a good look at her, she seemed prettier and more realistic than any of the "fit" sim women I have created. My husband peeked over my shoulder and said, "Finally, you have a Sim with a chest!!! Now she looks good!!" (Hubby is a chest-man LOL)

[Angelyne]

This thread gave me lots of food for thought. Of course it would be unrealistic and controversy producing for the game to decide who is attractive and who is not. However, why not let the PLAYER decide. I'm sure that when you play a Sims created or born, you have an opinion on his/her attractiveness or lack of. Why not let the player determine the degree of attractiveness of a particular Sim through a slider. Zero (default) would be neutral whereas plus or minus would make them more or less attractive. This wouldn’t offend anyone worth offending and you could have a imaginary world where out of shape balding men with big noses are the hottest tickets around J (it’s only the real world if these men also happen to be rich). As pointed by the poster above attractive sims would gather more attention than less attractive one. I think there already is an attraction factor (Zodiac signs), but this could add to it (but not supersede it)



I agree that Sims are rather neutral on their own. The game would be much more interesting if the sims were more autonomous in personal relationships. What would really be interesting is if you could set this degree of autonomy for each sims. For example you could have a variable (determined through a slider) that determines how much a sims is aggressive in pursuing the other (or same) sex. A slider pushed to the max would allow a sims to initiates flirts, kisses and woohoos on his own. Imagine the havoc an aggressive romance sims could cause if left unattended.

I think these autonomous actions should be determined by their aspirations. If they want grilled cheese sandwiches, then they should make it themselves. If they want to star gaze, ditto. Seems to me the sims are like a whole bunch of hopeless cases sitting around and just hoping good things will happen but never doing anything about it J

I think a large part of the fun of the Sims is when unexpected events occur. I find sims are a little too static on their own. In some other cases I just itch to turn off autonomy because they are driving me nuts! Have you ever tried to do any kind of interaction with a tired toddler that’s telepathically shouting to every sim in the household? I wanted his mother to tickle him a little before bed, to fulfill both their aspiration but it proved impossible with every adult in the household single-mindedly determined to put the baby to bed. It ended up with the father literally ripping the baby out of the mother’s arm. I mean it. Her arms stayed at a funny angle till she took a bath. Probably the warm water relaxed her muscles J

[Zootyzoot]

Why not let the player determine the degree of attractiveness of a particular Sim through a slider. Zero (default) would be neutral whereas plus or minus would make them more or less attractive.
Mm, interesting idea, but I'd prefer it if Sims decided each other's attractiveness by themselves instead of it being an absolute standard established by the player at the beginning - this'd be more realistic (beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all) and more chaotic and fun. But I completely agree with your comments on autonomy. The game is so much more fun when Sims direct their own lives, but they can only do that to a very limited degree currently, and it'd be fantastic if they had the AI and force of will or whatever to be able to conduct their lives with the level of competancy necessary not to kill themselves, but still to wreck havoc entertainingly. At present they are pretty static like you say - it'd be wonderful if there was a little more autonomously-generated chaos (that didn't lead to them dropping like flies).

[Angelyne]

Mm, interesting idea, but I'd prefer it if Sims decided each other's attractiveness by themselves instead of it being an absolute standard established by the player at the beginning - this'd be more realistic (beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all) and more chaotic and fun.


As I mentioned somewhere in my long-winded post :) I wouldn't mean for this attractiveness factor to supercede everything else. I imagine a sort of weighted system where attractivenes to another sim would be determined by the sims's sign, current hygiene, mood, aspiration level and physical attractiveness.

[Zootyzoot]

Sorry I misunderstood, that sounds a lot better than my original interpretation :). But I still think that physical attractiveness should be up to the beholding Sim. For instance, the 'Hygeine' factor would probably be more of an issue for Neat Sims than Sloppy ones - the 'Physical Attractiveness' factor could be similarly interpretable.

[Angelyne]

Yup that makes sense. Maybe serious sims would be less affected by attractiveness than let's say romance or popularity sims. I'd also base it on the relationship score. Love is blind as they say :)

[Rowanstaff]

Kristalrose revealed:
I got to know my husband playing Dungeons and Dragons back in the 1980's in High School. I'll never forget it: He sent his charector charging into certain death to try to save my charector. That's how I knew he liked me. ;)

Very cool. I run a D&D game every Friday Night and have been an avid gamer since I was 11 (over 20 years now, yes I'm a huge geek. I am a geek guru, His Royal Geekness to you!). And that was one of the healthiest ways I've seen a gamer show affection in game (I told my wife, she laughed and said "Awww, how sweet!")

Also, on the attractivenhess thread (sorry to shift gears) I think that does not work. Setting a Sims attractiveness seems unrealistic. A person may think they are attractive to everyone only to find other people who think some aspect of their physicallity is a total turn off (such and such body part is too big or small; egad that person has tattoos gag me; can you believe what that freak is wearing?) Perhaps what would be better is setting a personal setting for things a Sim finds attractive (gender; big noses; thin or heavy builds because some people like some junk in the trunk (http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=20050108);certain color eyes or hair; etc) and when two Sims meet who hit each others attractiveness zones they hit it off faster than others. It would be complicated. Just a thought.

[Mirelly]

and when two Sims meet who hit each others attractiveness zones they hit it off faster than others. It would be complicated.
Yes, yes, yes, oh Kilted One. :D This is exactly what I was thinking when I mentioned a willingness to sacrifice some graphical bling in exchange for more complex gaming ... but then without the graphic detail many nuances of the extra detail in the hame play might be ... well ... lost in the fog of lo-level graphical detail.

On the other hand some things seem entirely possible, For example, teens might congregate in community lots. Like all, or almost all, the teens in a hood might be likely to be found in a park or a coffee bar or somewhere with a video game between the hours of 8-11pm. There, typical teen behaviours might be seen. eg small groups of girls discussing (gossiping about) a boy ... the target of this gossip to be red-faced with embarrassement! (And, of course vice versa)

[Cyricc]

Very cool. I run a D&D game every Friday Night and have been an avid gamer since I was 11 (over 20 years now, yes I'm a huge geek. I am a geek guru, His Royal Geekness to you!). And that was one of the healthiest ways I've seen a gamer show affection in game (I told my wife, she laughed and said "Awww, how sweet!")
The Geek Hierarchy (http://www.brunching.com/images/geekchartbig.gif)

And a fellow PvP reader! Woot.

Anyway, I don't think attraction on basis of physical appearance is really possible, because physical attractiveness based on very specific and nit-picky things like facial features isn't something that can be effectively reduced to quantitative data. For example, say, the shape of someone's eyes may look good when combined with a certain set of facial settings, but look weirdly out of place or plain ugly when put on another face. An option for the user to customize a Sim's attractiveness leanings will also be required, and implementation of that would be horribly complex and difficult.

I like your idea on stuff like teen sims hanging out with each other Mirelly. Teens just don't act enough like, well, teens.

[Angelyne]

Pvp Rocks! I've been a faithful reader for years.

[Rowanstaff]

The Geek Hierarchy is awesome. I've been a fan of Brunching Shuttlecocks for ages (and their spinoff The Self-made Critic, who is hilarious).

[Rowanstaff]

Speaking of Brunching Shuttlecocks my favorite page was The Web Tycoon Board Game (http://www.brunching.com/webtycoon.html). My favorite square:
Your Russian-made mainframe runs out of gas.
Go back 4.
Hilarious.